Curse

Apache_Planeswalker · Aug 24, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Until they fix expertise every new class with an dmg skill or weapon is going to deadly in a rangers hands.

They can change expertise to fix that imbalance without messing up its orginal intention. Just lower the it down to 1.5-2% energy reduction for 2nd class skills. That would not make much of a change but it would take more skill to run rather than spamming every skill on your bar over and over.

That way the rangers skills still get the full 3% while not making things like touchers, thumpers, and javalins stronger than what their Primary classes could do.

Anet. If you read my message - DO NOT do the above.

Russell.Crowe · Aug 24, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

A thumper will be a hammer war because a thumper can KD the war more than the war can KD the thumper. The thumper can also stay in a 33% IAS stance 100% of the time while the war cannot. I'll 1vs1 scrimmage you any day with a thumper vs a hammer war. I've done it many times before and came out on top. To those that say a thumper cannot spike is absolutely not true.

Bash>Crushing and ferocious strike at the same time>IB

Look at the current state of the game. Spear paragons were not run during the weekend R/P were. Thumpway is every where not hammer wars. Touchers are every where in RA and AB not touch necros.

This is all because of expertise. It is a big imbalance in the game and everything will have to adjusted to make sure its not abused by rangers. While the primary profession will suffer the repercusions. This is also the reason twisted fangs was moved to critical attribute because like the previous poster mentioned a R/A was better than a Sin primary. I expect to see lighting javalin nerfed because of the abuse from R/P while on a paragon primary its not so scary.

The facts are every where open up your eyes and take a look.

lol nothing you have mentioned is a problem for me in RA/AB/TA, so I'm thinking you don't PvP much tbh.

I still see no facts. The reason there are no touch necros is because it is a STUPID concept. The touch ranger really isn't a much better one tbh. Notice how the only R/? builds in GvG(that aren't actually using a bow) is the thumper build, meaning the others are absolutely no problem. The thumper build does not impress me one bit by the DPS. IMO its not worth the armor sacrifice for what it does, but I guess that is my opinion.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 24, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winx.ZN

Anyone with the time here can sit and count the nerfs vs buffs. This might not be an 100% complete list but I am sure the meat of it is there. Comment on how these actually affected people if they so wish.

Thank you, it was very interesting to see it all at once like that. The only class which have got nerfed a lot is mesmers, especially their energy stealing. The others have broken even or received more buffs than nerfs (although some of the nerfs have pretty fundamental to the dynamic of the class), and eles have received almost exclusively buffs.

EDIT: also, regarding expertise... this is one of a very few times I have to agree with Twicky. People, e.g. Russel here apparently miss that Twickys point isn't that rangers are overpowered, but that other classes get shafted because their skills have to be balanced against ranger expertise, or the ranger will out-necro the necro, out-paragon the paragon etc.

EDIT2: And shardfenix is spot-on too; refreshing to see someone who've actually tried to play a touch ranger and actually know what they can and can not do. Kiting is not a counter to touchies.

EDIT3: Yes, I really have to stop reading threads back-to-front.

Russell.Crowe · Aug 24, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Thank you, it was very interesting to see it all at once like that. The only class which have got nerfed a lot is mesmers, especially their energy stealing. The others have broken even or received more buffs than nerfs (although some of the nerfs have pretty fundamental to the dynamic of the class), and eles have received almost exclusively buffs.

EDIT: also, regarding expertise... this is one of a very few times I have to agree with Twicky. People, e.g. Russel here apparently miss that Twickys point isn't that rangers are overpowered, but that other classes get shafted because their skills have to be balanced against ranger expertise, or the ranger will out-necro the necro, out-paragon the paragon etc.

EDIT2: And shardfenix is spot-on too; refreshing to see someone who've actually tried to play a touch ranger and actually know what they can and can not do. Kiting is not a counter to touchies.

EDIT3: Yes, I really have to stop reading threads back-to-front.

...I understand what he is saying, but a R/N does not "out-necro" a necro. A touch ranger is a simple bar that an inexperienced player can play to learn a little bit of PvP tactic, though limited it may be. I have indeed played a touch ranger before, and they are by no means better than a blood necro or any sort of necro.

BTW kiting does work against them, no it is not a counter, but when is it a counter? A warrior still hits you when you kite, you can't run around forever. Kiting lowers a touchy's DPS significantly, as it does a warrior.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 24, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell.Crowe

...I understand what he is saying, but a R/N does not "out-necro" a necro. A touch ranger is a simple bar that an inexperienced player can play to learn a little bit of PvP tactic, though limited it may be. I have indeed played a touch ranger before, and they are by no means better than a blood necro or any sort of necro.

Yeah, I've played both a blood necro and a touch ranger too, and a touch ranger does about 2x more damage than a blood necro with Life Transfer + Life Siphon + Shadow Strike (and to that one can add that hexes have long casts and are hardly ever left on a target for their full duration, plus the necro has about 20 seconds downtime after firing a full volley).

The point, however, isn't that touch rangers are overpowered, the point is that they use the necros Vampiric skills better than primary necros do. Rangers use all non-spell skills which cost energy better than their primary do.
The touch ranger could be completely killed by making the vampiric skills into spells, but the underlying problem is that Expertise makes rangers uber at *all* non-spell skills which cost energy. Better to fix that.

Quote:

BTW kiting does work against them, no it is not a counter, but when is it a counter? A warrior still hits you when you kite, you can't run around forever. Kiting lowers a touchy's DPS significantly, as it does a warrior.

Yeah, well, I'll concede it may keep you alive a few seconds longer, but a touch ranger, unlike a warrior, will bring two speedbuffs and they're pretty much free to a touch ranger due to Expertise (about 2 energy for 12 seconds each, and they have 30 second recharge). He'll run faster for longer than you.

Russell.Crowe · Aug 24, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Yeah, I've played both a blood necro and a touch ranger too, and a touch ranger does about 2x more damage than a blood necro with Life Transfer + Life Siphon + Shadow Strike (and to that one can add that hexes have long casts and are hardly ever left on a target for their full duration, plus the necro has about 20 seconds downtime after firing a full volley).

The point, however, isn't that touch rangers are overpowered, the point is that they use the necros Vampiric skills better than primary necros do. Rangers use all non-spell skills which cost energy better than their primary do.
The touch ranger could be completely killed by making the vampiric skills into spells, but the underlying problem is that Expertise makes rangers uber at *all* non-spell skills which cost energy. Better to fix that.

Yeah, well, I'll concede it may keep you alive a few seconds longer, but a touch ranger, unlike a warrior, will bring two speedbuffs and they're pretty much free to a touch ranger due to Expertise (about 2 energy for 12 seconds each, and they have 30 second recharge). He'll run faster for longer than you.

You must be a poor necro... and no decent touch ranger brings 2 speedbuffs, they bring 1. They do not use vampiric skills better than a necro because unlike a necro they actually have to touch their target. Expertise does not make rangers uber at all non-spell attacks, it makes them able to use them without losing as much energy. There is a big difference. I see no reason to change Expertise because if you can't handle a toucher in randoms, how do you expect to handle other things thrown at you in high tier PvP?

Skyy High · Aug 24, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

The existence of expertise means that NO class can ever get a high energy, spammable _skill_ with a decent effect, or the r/x will use it to greater effect than the x/r. This is either a self-imposed limit on design that ANet will have to put up with for the entirety of the game's existence, or a tripwire that will repeatedly catch them in balance slip ups (for example, the touch ranger).

The solution - leave expertise as-is for ranger skills, but reduce the effect for secondaries. Simple, and the only builds it will hurt are (atm) touchers and thumpers.

jimmyhats · Aug 24, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

having just read this thread, i can only assume that 95% of the posters have never actually PLAYED guildwars.

RVallant · Aug 24, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyhats

having just read this thread, i can only assume that 95% of the posters have never actually PLAYED guildwars.

Agreed.

Also it's apparent people are being stubborn and refusing to acknowledge each other's points where they are made.

In theory Touch rangers are nothing to a balanced team that can take them on, but in AB and RA where you're going to get a mixed group the moment you face 4 or 5 of them ganking on everyone and only one of you is built to counter them then you run into problems.

I even went into TA once for a laugh and saw several full-toucher builds I don't think any class bar the mesmer is suited for countering an exceptional number of touchers. One yes, but FOUR or more is where the crap hits the fan.

I even stopped AB for a bit because frankly I thought touch-rangers were sucking the fun out of the game (don't lord it over me with "you suck" and all that, it's a fact, you would NEVER be able to take on 5+ touch rangers and get away with it and in AB you have to face them eventually) needless those AB fights weren't even a contest they went straight to 500-80 before you could suss what was going on.

Also, I run a shock-warrior with a few modifications. I've made myself a kiter-killer that is my role. I'm not godly, in fact I rely on my team-mates to distract everyone else while I take out the kiter (usually a monk or mesmer whichever is destinated as more deadly) but my whole build relies on knockdown-spike damage to give even more pressure on the monk and kiters themselves I haven't a need to bring cripple skills and I'm not stupid enough to think of bringing a cripple skill to take out a toucher that would if they were focusing on me plague touch the damn thing back on me.

Plus, every time I've had the misfortune to run into a toucher by the time shock fires off my HP is well within the last 100 especially if I'm being ganked by 5 of the gits. Skills that ignore armour *are* overpowered in this sense, kiting isn't going to work...

Still, I don't really care too much at the end of the day, because I can always go somewhere else, that's the beauty of Guild Wars PVP is entirely optional. I lean towards a nerf because I've experience the ganking of Touch-rangers and I can see they're in need of it because otherwise everyone will have to run an anti-toucher build which, at the end of the day ruins the whole point of the game and leave you open to attacks from everything else including my wonderful kiter-killer!

Peace out ^_^

Isil`Zha · Aug 25, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

a skill that REALY needs a nurf? Spitful spirit!!!

casting? 2 seconds (PLZZZZ)
cost? 15 energy (ANET, you kidding?!!!)
recharge? 10 seconds (ZOMFG)

NO AOE!!!! EVERY HIT DOES DAMAGE!!!

now, compare to the poor ele thats triggering his 25e, 5 sec casting Meteor shower, just to make the mob run away....

never realised how overpowered SS is untill i played with a necro

SS is easily sidestepped though - stop attacking and wait for it to wear off. It's only overpowered in that there are a lot of really stupid people that keep on attacking with SS and Insidious Parasite on them.

Now my SS build on the other hand.... I have it set up so the only way to avoid damage is to stand still and do absolutely nothing.

EDIT: Well, how many people can take on 4 or 5 of any class attacking just them anyway? Even with builds that aren't built for it, my teams (usually me and my guildies) in AB have little trouble taking on whole touch ranger groups. I even had one game about a week ago where we came up against a full team of touch rangers... I counted in local chat each Toucher I killed, and had taken out 9 of them within the first few minutes of the game.

All with a "standard" GPS>Horns>Spider>Twisting Fangs AoD Assassin. I say "standard" cause everyone calls it that, but I almost never see people use the combo. Besides, changing up utility skills makes a huge difference...

Anyway, it went like this on all the Touchies: AoD, GPS---->TF combo, Caltrops, Cancel AoD. Then I laugh as they limp and drop dead from degen, as the combo left all of them with around 5-10% health at most, and with -7 degen they drop dead in literally about 2-3 seconds. Being crippled, they can't catch anyone to heal themselves. Did I mention that I surprised them all and hit them so fast that the most any of them ever hit me was once, leaving me with nearly full health - I'd call that a curbstomp. Not only do Touch Rangers not bother me anymore, I will specifically hunt them for a good laugh. And this build I was using was not made to specifically combat them.

Unaccurate · Aug 25, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

anet does not balance things for RA or AB, simply because almost anything can be extra effective against noobs.

ectospasm · Aug 25, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

this is why i dont do pvp unless i have to

also pve sucks a bit more when they nerf a skill you like to use just cause someone doesnt like it in pvp

im not diggin the consequences but thats what u get when a dev team can do what they want with the game cause its thiers. and they have bad taste, even the emotes are lame

led-zep · Aug 25, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ectospasm

also pve sucks a bit more when they nerf a skill you like to use just cause someone doesnt like it in pvp

QFT stop messing up pve because of pvp

lyra_song · Aug 25, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

i agree with twicky.

Although i dont consider touchies to be that great of a threat, i do consider expertise to be the best primary attribute in the game, and as such, i think it does deserve a nerf, with the upcoming expansion and future expansions.

Soul Reaping was halved for spirits, Expertise should be cut down for secondaries skills. IIRC (can someone check for me) at and 16 exp, the 15 energy skills only cost 5-6 energy.

I think it should be a minimum of 8-9 energy per 15 energy skill. This would lower spammability.

No im not a ranger hater. I love my ranger, her name is Bunny, and her pet is named Thumper, so nya.

The current way expertise is now, it limits what the current and future classes can have in attack skills. Look at the warrior. Any future skills a warrior can get,not in the strength line, with some proper fiddling, a ranger can use fairly effectively.

Even high cost adrenal skills like backbreaker can be used thanks to cheap IAS and adrenaline gain through ferocious.

Quote:

when a dev team can do what they want with the game cause its thiers. and they have bad taste, even the emotes are lame

LOL. Wow...you seriously think Anet is doing "what it wants"? What Anet originally wanted cannot be what GW is now.

GW is supposed to be PVE to lvl 20, beat the game, then PVP as your end game purpose.

The players changed that design. They forced Anet to rethink their ideas and they added things to make us happy.

Even when they came to Factions to try to make players PvP. It was greeted rather poorly, imo.

Voila, player opinion forced them to change their ideas.

I doubt anyone would still be playing if Anet did "what they wanted".

Unaccurate · Aug 26, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

So the people that say kiting doesnt work because rangers have speedboosts, that means you cant kite warriors because they have rush?